nts (toby sola, better tech #1)

"algorithms don’t have crap on humans"

Today I’m starting a series of “Better Tech” interviews with experts in mindfulness, wellbeing, and mental health about tech. First up, I’m excited to welcome a friend and collaborator: Toby Sola.

I first met Toby years ago at a monastery he was living at. At this point, he’s been teaching meditation for two decades. His craft has been refined through years of monastic training and close collaboration with Shinzen Young. Toby is also an award-winning designer and founder of the Brightmind Meditation app. -JV

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JV: Hey Toby. So we’re starting this new interview series. My first instinct was to ask people to recommend tech that helps them stay sane, but recently I’ve been thinking instead to just ask people about the tech they love and enjoy the most. What do you think?

TS: I like both categories. I wanna talk about both.

JV: Well, what if we only had time for one?

TS: The guilty pleasure is important. There’s a lot of people out there telling us to eat our vegetables already. Wait, actually, ‘guilty pleasure’ is probably not the best term, given that your book is all about feeling less guilty.

JV: I was gonna say.

Well, if you had to pick one, I’d say the guilty pleasure. So that’s my vote.

JV: Okay let’s do it, without the guilt. What's a personal favorite technology that brings you joy, connection, or meaning in your life? Don’t pick something you feel like you should love—tell me about something you actually love.

TS: For me, a technology I get a lot joy from is a radio app called NTS. It started in Manchester with DJs from the UK during the early days of internet radio. Over the years they’ve launched a mobile app and grown into a global phenomenon.

Today, they have studios in most major cities, and it’s fascinating to hear DJs from all over the world. The app lets you tune in to livestreams or listen back to any past show. In any moment, there could be someone mixing from Moscow, Tokyo, Rio de Janiero, Los Angeles, anywhere. It’s an incredible network of music lovers that find amazing music and share it with each other.

You talk to a lot of people about how they find music, and they tell you about Spotify’s algorithm, but listening to NTS makes it very clear that algorithms don’t have crap on humans. I find the selection of music from NTS DJs are 10x more interesting, eclectic, esoteric, fun, way better than anything the Spotify algorithm gives me.

JV: So if I decide to try it out, where do I start? How do you personally use NTS for best results?

If I’m in a hurry I’ll just play one of the two live streams that are always running. But a lot of the time, the main shows are playing a genre I’m not into. So if you’re considering playing around with NTS, don’t get dissuaded if you don’t like what’s on the livestreams.

There are so many other genres worth exploring on the Discovery tab. The producers curate the best shows and they can be very tasteful. And once you find a DJ you really like, you can go to their profiles and dive into their past shows.

The mixtapes are another favorite feature. They offer endless playlists across genres, compiled from previous shows, often curated by DJs. Two I keep coming back to are Memory Lane with its classic rock and rare singer-songwriter tracks and Expansions which is all about jazz.

JV: I mean, the level of passion you have for this palpable. Sounds like this is about more than just music for you.

TS: Oh, absolutely. It’s a tool for discovery and connection.

One of the main things that differentiates NTS from Spotify is that I get to hear super eclectic, amazing songs that I never would have found otherwise. I think that’s really cool, and the main role of a DJ as an art form, as far as I’m concerned.

While I’m listening, if I hear something that I really, really like, I’ll use Shazam to identify the song. Once a month, I transfer those tracks to my Spotify playlist, which I call Toby’s Tunes. Usually, I go back and listen to the tracks I’ve flagged later to make sure I still really like them. Through this process, I’m left with a playlist of incredible, unique songs I never would’ve found otherwise. I often put it on when I’m hosting people in my home, or driving. It brings me a lot of joy, especially when I’m with other people.

I’m so pumped about this stuff that I even include links in my professional bio on my meditation app as a part of who I am. I just want to share this with the world because I think music is such a wonderful medium for feeling connected, feeling inspired, and even spiritual work… maybe that’s a little too far.

JV: Oh man, I don’t think it’s too far at all. Love how you use this clearly defined process, and how that brings you all kinds of joy and connection. As a mindfulness teacher and practitioner, you probably know all about the potential problems with a lot of mainstream tech. What does it feel like to celebrate NTS as an example of something better? What does that tell you about yourself, and about technology’s potential to bring us joy?

TS: Interesting question. I mean, I think it reflects, first and foremost, it reflects that I am a musician, and I love music, and I'm a “music head”, as they say.

NTS lets me hear people from the other side of the world playing rare cuts of traditional middle eastern music, or DJs from Tokyo playing Japanese jazz… I love global culture, I love travelling, it’s hard to travel, but NTS allows me to hang out with people from all over the world and be a part of a global culture of people who are really passionate about music like me. So that's one level.

I also think the systematic way that I approach music is also definitely a reflection of me. I'm a very systematic, you could say, obsessive, person. It’s how I interact with the world. And in a way, tech kind of facilitates that. Like, if your mind works in a systematic way, tech can really meet you there, right?

JV: Yes, totally. It’s logical to the core.

TS: Yeah, though I think the heart of what you're asking is “Oh, this technology brings me joy. What's going on there? Why do I experience so much genuine value from this product?” And I think the answer is that NTS facilitates the distribution of creativity in an instant and seamless way.

These amazing people have spent years, and sometimes their entire lives, combing through records at record shops. They're so passionate about finding rare tracks that are really good, and that’s something I really value. This tech lets me hear what it sounds like in the living room of people from all over the world who have dedicated their whole lives to listening to great music.

I'm like a kid in a candy shop when I can surround myself with people who are passionate about what I'm passionate about. I get to enjoy all this hard work and this creativity and this talent that so many people have put into their art. And I just stream it on my phone.

JV: And what does your love for NTS show you about what you value in a well-designed piece of technology?

TS: I love that the interface lets me go down rabbit holes and fully immerse myself in the sounds I really enjoy. If you find some joy, the app makes it easy to derive more joy.

It’s also totally voluntary. I don’t feel like NTS is always trying to notify me or grasp at my attention. The way I use it comes from within. Do I want to listen to music? The question comes up organically in my own mind, and if the answer is no, I never really engage with the app. But when I'm genuinely in the mood to listen to music, I go to the app and it's just a very consensual experience. I'm not being manipulated in any way.

And, as I mentioned, the intentional curation of a community is essential. With YouTube, anyone can upload a DJ set or whatever, of course there are advantages to that, but what I like about NTS is that it’s grounded in a set of human beings who are curating and growing their personal networks around music.

That might sound exclusionary, but with art, there’s also a power to basing a scene on organic human relationships. I think that is also a very good way to build something. There is an actual social network under this, made up of people who love music, and who love sharing music. When I listen to NTS, I feel a bit like I’m a part of that community.

JV: I know Brightmind takes a pretty systematic approach to meditation, and I saw that you ran an in-person retreat last year. I can’t help but notice that the things you love about NTS seem to be showing up in where you’re taking Brightmind…

TS: Yeah, I think you're on to something. Some of the happiness research out there shows that the quality of our relationships is a major predictor of how happy you are. If you have high quality relationships with people who will love you through thick and thin, that is going to lead to happiness.

With a lot of meditation apps, there’s barely a sense of community. In the last two years or so, as you say, I've emphasized daily sits, one-on-one coaching, and retreats—both online and in-person. I have been trying to cultivate and center community around the app.

The meditation practice is important, but the relationships we build also impact our meditation practice. That's really important. Social networks and relationships are some of the most real things in the world. They're kind of the engine that makes things happen.

We want technology to facilitate strong, high-quality social networks. A lot of social media say they want to connect the world, but as we've seen, there are a lot of negative externalities. So it matters how you’re connecting people, and what they’re connecting about. Those are important design questions. The devil’s in the details. That’s what I appreciate about NTS, and it’s also showing up in my work with Brightmind.